What will Diamond do to Bluegreen?

[timeos2]

Originally Posted by BocaBum99

Lastly, if you own the deed and DRI owns the HOA, they can still charge you a special assessment whether or not the deeds are in trust. There are lots of things a resort developer can do to make your lives miserable if they want.
Any HOA can whether its independent or controlled by a resort developer. Focusing on one item like the ease of the foreclosure process to declare that deeded weeks are better than deeds held in trust is a red herring and trivial point. Ownerships are still governed by Florida Real Estate Statutes.

I'm not focusing on that even though it is a critical part. When you hold the deed YOU vote for whatever Board/resort it is at. When the trust holds the deed you have no vote. If the Developer holds the management spot - deeded or not - that's another whammy against owners. Special assessments will always be the bane of condo's/timeshares - better to hold the power of the vote to at least have some say in the matter vs the developers/managements whims. Finally depending on FL statutes to protect your individual rights as an owner is a fantasy. They write great rules but if systems/resorts (hello Wastegate - is there a rule/regulation they haven't broken in Fl? And their not even a trust) choose to ignore them just try to get any action out of them. They and the developer know it costs big $$ to fight them and most owners aren't willing to spend that so they go on their merry way.

I would never - ever - own a non-deeded timeshare as its far too much power to those who simply want your money in a system already far too tilted toward developers/managers and away from the small owners.

As an example what absolute rights would the Trust "owners" (really lease holders) have if this plan goes through to modify the terms, rules or block it? None. Sure you could file a complaint but lots of luck with that going anywhere. If you buy into a trust based system you are putting all your faith in that system running to your satisfaction. If not you have zero rights to change it - your choice is to get out. They could care less as they can resell it. Not a position I want to be in with my upfront buy in to whatever system it may be.

[BocaBum99]

Originally Posted by timeos2

I'm not focusing on that even though it is a critical part. When you hold the deed YOU vote for whatever Board/resort it is at. When the trust holds the deed you have no vote. If the Developer holds the management spot - deeded or not - that's another whammy against owners. Special assessments will always be the bane of condo's/timeshares - better to hold the power of the vote to at least have some say in the matter vs the developers/managements whims. Finally depending on FL statutes to protect your individual rights as an owner is a fantasy. They write great rules but if systems/resorts (hello Wastegate - is there a rule/regulation they haven't broken in Fl? And their not even a trust) choose to ignore them just try to get any action out of them. They and the developer know it costs big $$ to fight them and most owners aren't willing to spend that so they go on their merry way.

I would never - ever - own a non-deeded timeshare as its far too much power to those who simply want your money in a system already far too tilted toward developers/managers and away from the small owners.

As an example what absolute rights would the Trust "owners" (really lease holders) have if this plan goes through to modify the terms, rules or block it? None. Sure you could file a complaint but lots of luck with that going anywhere. If you buy into a trust based system you are putting all your faith in that system running to your satisfaction. If not you have zero rights to change it - your choice is to get out. They could care less as they can resell it. Not a position I want to be in with my upfront buy in to whatever system it may be.

In Bluegreen, all owners get a vote. Not sure what you mean by that.

I haven't seen your whole argument, but I think you are putting way too much emphasis on deeded week vs. held in trust. I see very little difference in legal structure, owners rights and recourse should the board be controlled by a power entity.

Let's look at Fairfield. Lots of those ownerships are deeded and Wyndham still made them worthless. At this point, I believe WorldMark is way better than Fairfield. And, WorldMark is the penultimate in deeded trust.

If you are looking at Westgate, they would be like they are independently of who held the deeds.

[BocaBum99]

Originally Posted by timeos2

As an example what absolute rights would the Trust "owners" (really lease holders) have if this plan goes through to modify the terms, rules or block it? None. Sure you could file a complaint but lots of luck with that going anywhere. If you buy into a trust based system you are putting all your faith in that system running to your satisfaction. If not you have zero rights to change it - your choice is to get out. They could care less as they can resell it. Not a position I want to be in with my upfront buy in to whatever system it may be.

I completely disagree. I think you need to read the Bluegreen Vacation Club trust agreement before you render such a judgement. Obviously, it depends on how the trust agreement is written.

The only difference between a deeded week and one held in trust is that the transfer is easier since when a deed changes hands in the Bluegreen Trust, it doesn't need to be re-recorded. So, transfer fees can be reduced. In WorldMark, it's only $150 to do a transfer. In WorldMark, all owners get to vote for the board based on how many credits they have.

I actually believe that timeshare needs to move toward a trust model to get away from the horrendous closing cycles. Why would a stock that is 1000 times more complicated than a timeshare be tradable online and in seconds whereas a timeshare takes an average of 2-3 months to close. It's due to the arcane rules of real estate recording.

When you own a timeshare, you are completely held hostage to the quality, caliber and capabilities of the board whether it is independent or a resort developer. Relying on a deed to protect is foolhardy.

[dougp26364]

Originally Posted by BocaBum99

Now that Bluegreen has signaled it's intent to be acquired by Diamond Resorts, I'd like to get an idea of what they are likely to do when they become the resort developer and club manager. Can current Sunterra/Diamond owners provide us some insight?

The Bluegreen Vacation Club operates a lot like the big Club trust of 14 or so resorts. In fact, I believe they are both created under the Florida Multi-site timeshare plan.

Bocca,

I've thought about this a lot over the last few days. In short, I really don't know what DRI will do with Bluegreen other than incorporate it into their existing program. Since I know little about how Bluegreen actually works I haven't got a clue as to whether they plan to keep it seperated with recipricol benetis or intergrate it with DRI's THE Club.

What I suspect is that, initially (and if the sale even goes through), is that they'll be kept seperate with recipricole benefits between the clubs. I would look for them to eventually be merged, hopefully taking the best of both clubs and making them into one club.

Only time will tell what will happen. I remain optimistic but feel that it will be a good 4 or 5 years before things really come into focus as to the extent of how things will be. For now I'm happy with points reservation system DRI offers. It is more flexible than the weeks exchanging I was doing. It's only been a year but DRI has made imporvements to the old Sunterra resorts. Improvements that have been positive and necessary IMO. Of course, not everyone is happy about the cost of those improvements. Mr. Cloobeck does have a definate view of what he wants his resorts to be. I'm not always certain I understand his personal objectives and I'm not always 100% that their customer focused so much has his presonal preference and sales focused but I do expect quality improvements compared to what Sunterra had.

The only Bluegreen resort we've exchanged into has been Falls Village. I believe Bluegreen took over from a previous developer at that resort. We enjoyed the units we've had there but, the soft goods were not up to Mr. C's expectations. I could see him wanting to upgrade those items sooner rather than later. Keep in mind that upgrades with DRI come at a price and that price won't come out of DRI's pocket. I do not think that, from what little I've seen, that Bluegreen quality will be as much of a difference in what Sunterra quality was when Mr. Cloobeck bought out Sunterra. Sunterra was, IMO, a distressed company whereas Bluegreen appears to be a financially sound and well preforming company. I do not think there will be as much of a difference if DRI becomes the owner of Bluegreen as was the case with Sunterra.

At any rate, these are just my opinions. It's going to take a few years to really get a good feeling for changes if the deal even goes through. I'm certain that some things will change. With timeshare they always do. Even it there's not a merger.

[BocaBum99]

Doug,

I echo your thoughts. I think it will take a while before the Clubs can or will be merged. I do think they will remain distinct.... just like Fairfield and WorldMark are still distinct.

I agree that Sunterra resorts have higher quality furnishings from Bluegreen on average. Either they can be brought up to a higher standard with higher resulting fees. Or, there could be 2 tiers of product in a portfolio. Some timeshare resorts like Raintree does this and they upgrade owners through the course of their lives to higher quality products. Time will tell.

[dougp26364]

Originally Posted by BocaBum99

Doug,

I echo your thoughts. I think it will take a while before the Clubs can or will be merged. I do think they will remain distinct.... just like Fairfield and WorldMark are still distinct.

I agree that Sunterra resorts have higher quality furnishings from Bluegreen on average. Either they can be brought up to a higher standard with higher resulting fees. Or, there could be 2 tiers of product in a portfolio. Some timeshare resorts like Raintree does this and they upgrade owners through the course of their lives to higher quality products. Time will tell.

I could be wrong but it looks like DRI is moving towards two tiers within their own resorts. At Fall Creek in Brason, at least one building has "deluxe" units. These require addtional points over the standard units to reserve. In this way DRI is allowing current owners happy with standard units to remain in standard units while offering those of us who enjoy higher quality furnishings the choice of booking and paying for the higher quality.

What I'm wondering now is will DRI build only "deluxe" units and attempt to maintain the standard units or will they continue to build both? I was hoping to see additional construction at Fall Creek this year as it appeared there were lots for 3 additional buildings but, when we were there a couple of weeks ago there was no new construction activity. With DRI making a big on Bluegreen and the fact Bluegreen has added new buildings to Falls Village, this could be why. I would suppose that a company would not want to many unsold units between several resorts to maintain.

[Jya-Ning]

Originally Posted by BocaBum99

This is incorrect. ALL Bluegreen Points are based on an underlying deeded week and unit number.

Thanks for the correction. My believe is, as long as the taker willing to pump the new development into the system, it will not hurt that system. If there is no new inventory added but existing possible inventory been pulled out, it will be bad, does not matter if the owner hold deeds or not.

Not sure how Sunterra was constructed either, but I would think there are ways for both clubs share inventories even if both trust beep kept as seperate entities. ANd I believe both development team will continue to be there.

Jya-Ning

[BocaBum99]

Originally Posted by Jya-Ning

Thanks for the correction. My believe is, as long as the taker willing to pump the new development into the system, it will not hurt that system. If there is no new inventory added but existing possible inventory been pulled out, it will be bad, does not matter if the owner hold deeds or not.

Not sure how Sunterra was constructed either, but I would think there are ways for both clubs share inventories even if both trust beep kept as seperate entities. ANd I believe both development team will continue to be there.

Jya-Ning

There is a method today in place where Bluegreen shares inventory with Shell Vacation Club. It's called Select Connections. Bluegreen owners have a point table for Shell and Shell has a point table for Bluegreen. If the system is designed properly, they should be able to add DRI resorts as well.

Jim

[terrazoon]

It seems like there is a lot of overlap. I don't get it.

Does Diamond need more Florida and South Carolina resorts?

I know the answer is "Diamond does whatever is in its interests" but I don't see how this is.

When they make the sales pitch, wouldn't it be better to say "and we have premier resorts in Cabo, PV, Cancun" than to say "you guys in Georgia now have 30 resorts in driving distance!"

Oh well ...

[fnewman]

Depends on where you live, I suppose; some people fly great distances to get to those southeastern coastal resorts.